*new* 13Mar13
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/nature/what-animals-thinking.html
Well, if this isn't perfect timing. Video about a dolphin asking a diver for help:
http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=50139493n&tag=api
What other instances of animal rationality can you think of? Or, is it all just instinct? How would we know? What would make behavior rational? (this is a good exercise -- what makes someone morally culpable for a crime? must they be rational to be punished?)
I would definatly say that this example with the dolphin is not purley instinct, but infact the dolphin had to use some rationale to know that the divers could help him.The dolphin understood how to help himself and that was by seeking help from a human. The dolphin does not have to communicate with us in language, the divers could tell his distress from his body language and the way that the wild dolphin came right up to the diver when he motioned for the dolphin to come closer. I think that this behavior exhibited by the dolphin is rational because it made the decision to trust the diver and make it easier for the diver to help him by moving so that the diver could reach the spots where the wire and hook were caught. Since the dolphin was able to decide to move, turn, and roll over so that the diver could help him, there was obviously rational thought going through his mind.
ReplyDeleteWhat makes someone morally culpable for a crime is when they are able to distinguish right from wrong and know what they were doing is wrong but went along with it anyway.
During class this past Wednesday, everybody was giving their own personal animal stories and why they thought their dog was using reason over instinct. My family and I had a dog named Ivan who died last year. Ivan was very close to my mother. One time she went out of town on a trip and she left Ivan at home with me and my sister. He refused to eat while my mother was out of town. I've heard of stories like this that when the dog thinks that its owner is gone that they no longer want to live or at least not to live with other owners. After this, every time my mom went out of town he would refuse to eat. I definitely think this is reason and feelings over instinct. I don't know how that could be an instinct?
ReplyDeleteAs far as what makes a person morally culpable for a crime, I don't know. I like to think that the person is not a 100% mentally present, but that could be my own nieve way of thinking of it. I think there has to be repercussions for every crime but they must be appropriate to that person's mental state.
I think that this dolphin- like Ashton mentioned earlier, knew that if he hadn't allowed the diver to help him that he could have been maimed or could have gotten caught on something and drowned. Animals are amazing in knowing when they need help and when they need help from humans. I think it could be both instinct and reason due to the dolphin's high natural intelligence, but they are also very social creatures. I'm sure those divers have seen multiple dolphins in their dives with the rays.
ReplyDeleteIn accordance with Lydia's story, my animals get really upset when someone from our household is out of town. My dog, Misty, is close with my Gram and when Gram would have to be admitted to the hospital at various times over the last year and a half, Misty would be nuts. She's a Sheltie, so it is in her nature to herd us all together and keep us safe. So while Gram was at the hospital for treatments she would lay by the front door, or constantly be with my mom or I- whoever was home. My mom and I keep saying that one of them is going to pass away and the other will be close behind- and that's ok with us. Misty and Gram have been a team for almost 12 years.
As for what makes a person morally culpable for a crime, there are so many possibilities. There are people who have serious mental issues or social issues- like the shooter who shot up Sandy Hook, in CT, or the shooter at the theater in Auroura (spelling?), Colorado. You could even throw in Casey Anthony and what she may or may not have done to her daughter. I think there are different ways to look at whether a person is morally aware that they are committing a crime. I think that there are some truly bad, if not evil, people in the world- Hitler, Stalin, Sadam Hussein, Osma bin Laden, just to name a few. We all have the choice to either do the right thing or do the wrong thing. It may all be hardwired in our brain- who knows. I agree with Lydia- each person's crime should have the appropriate punishment depending on their mental state- for example: the men who killed the heroin dealer from Florence and then dismembered his body and threw him all over a farm in Verona, they knew what they were doing. They planned it out and said that they were ridding the world of evil, one drug dealer at a time. Those boys deserve what ever punishment they court gives them. My only fear is, that if we check the mental status of every criminal- there would be more pleads of insanity and making a mental health the crutch of why they did what they did.
The dolphin video is so intreging to me. It's amazing how the dolphin repositions himself to allow the diver to help. That does not seem like an instinct at all, but rationale thinking. I think so many other animals have this rationale thinking. I see it all the time with my cats.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofpYRITtLSg
ReplyDeleteThis video is my response to this blog. This is not the only video supporting how animals can rationalize. This second dog does not 'need' the first in order to survive, so clearly it's instinct is not going driving the act. Also, the dog performed an act that was safest to the other (using its paws).
I think that the video was example of how dolphins are rational. Also I see that the more an animal comes into contact with humans the more rational it becomes. For example when I don't think that a stray dogs can be rational because it does what it needs to do to survive, but I dog that is trained or that has contact with humans can learn to be rational.
ReplyDeleteI also think that a person needs to be rational to be punished but, I feel that the court system lets some people get away with crimes because their view of a person who is rational sometimes is deluded.
Owning dogs my entire life and having friends that lived on farms with lots of livestock animals made me a true believer in animal rationalization. I see dogs that do tricks or bring beers for their owners and just see an animal that is going through the motions that they know will get them food. There have been cats and dogs that go into rooms of elderly or injured people and not wanting to leave. The person dies shortly after the animal goes in the room. This is one thing I have never been able to understand about animals.
ReplyDeleteSo there is for sure a difference between an animal being trained to do things, and the animals that do something like solve math problems. If you watch animals at the zoo you will be very surprised to see that they do things that require independent thoughts. Example- a zebra breaking off a stick from a tree used to scratch a place they cannot reach.
Animals are very interesting because of their ability to think rationally about something. Farm animals are very smart as well. I grew up in a small farm town with friends that owned smart animals. If they can put one and two together, they are solving a problem in their head with what they have learned to reach a solution for a problem. It is like how dogs see someone climbing a fence and escape by mimicking the actions by someone else.
This is a funny video I saw a while ago of a dog playing dead when being told it was getting a bath.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35qG2OQ-OD0
I completly agree with you that animals do have rational thoughts. I'm not sure if you have ever watched the show "Pet Star" on Animal Planet that showed a while ago and I'm not sure if they still air episodes but it shows dogs calculating math problems and all sorts of other things.
DeleteHere is a video from Pet Star of a dog calculating math problems:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYs6VpeUN_w
Absolutely I remember with Mario Lopez! That show is still on youtube sometimes and there are a lot of animals that do unreal stuff.
DeleteI definitely think some animals are capable of rational thinking. My own dog is around 10 years old, has never been allowed on our leather sofa, but I catch her up there sleeping every morning before I leave for school--and after both my parents have left for work. She knows they will discipline her and I won't, so she literally waits for them to leave before hopping up.
ReplyDeleteThe extent to which animals reason will always be hazy, being that there is something of a language gap between our species. Obviously, we can't ask an animal about their motives, so it seems logical that they are acting out of mere habit or instinct... But, this dolphin (and numerous other "Lassie" type stories) suggest otherwise.
The question of being morally accountable also complicates this matter. I believe that (much like I mentioned earlier with animals), when someone is mentally ill, they also have something of a communication gap. They have a harder time interacting with other people, and their actions reflect this.
I believe that the dolphin had to act rationally in order to look for help from the diver. The dolphin somehow knew that the diver had the capability to help and would not further hurt the dolphin. This is a great example at how animals do not just act on instinct they have to be able to somehow rationally think about things. Another example that I could give about animals acting rationally would be my dog sophie. She is an outdoor dog and gets pinned up. Well one night she did not want to go into the pin so she layed on the ground and would not move. She is a golden retriever and not small! I can not even lift her up. Some how she had to think and know that if she layed down there would be no way that I would be able to move her into the pin. This is just one example that I can give about how animals can behave rationally and I know that I can think of many more.
ReplyDeleteThis video was amazing! It shows the dolphin seeking help and I believe that it was not just an instinct but is rationale. The dolphin clearly was aware that the diver could help for the dolphin. The dolphin knew he had a reason to get help that way he could survive.
ReplyDeleteMy grandma had a dog "baby" that stayed by her side until her passing. She was within an assisted living home where her dog was the first dog accepted into the facility. The dog would go and visit each patient and though many patients were very ill or struggling you could see they were happy with having the dog around and I could see that the dog knew that she made the patients happy. When the dog was not around my grandma, my grandma became stressed and upset; when this occurred the dog would soon return and make my grandma aware that she retuned by jumping up by her side and there were clear results that the dog knew she comforted my grandma. I really feel as if dogs know they are given to a person for a reason.
I always want to know what my dog at home is thinking, but I know I cannot know. I find it interesting of those who claim they are able to listen to a dog and find out what they are thinking. I am curious to know if this is true or not. I find my dog very comforting. When I am upset, my dog will stay by my side. He has a reason to be there for me, and that is to comfort.
One instinct I know my dog has is when there are storms or when the vacuum is running or even the word vacuum is said, he will run and hide upstairs in my sisters bedroom. It is a natural instinct for him to run and hide rather it be because he is scared or they are too loud; I am not sure!
For a person to commit a crime, I believe that is a rationale act. I know some people when they become mad or upset their first instinct is to fight, hit, etc. But when committing a crime, such as killing someone, I feel as if it would be planned out and there are some reasonings behind it. I do not think anyone can just have an instinct to kill; it just doesn't make sense to me.
This question ties into my philisophical authors class which i really really like. The author we're covering is Hannah Arendt and she is a jewish student of heidegger that lived through WWII. She was over looking the criminal trial of Heichman, one of the nazi party members that was actively involved in the holocaust. She coined the ever popular term "the benality of evil". According to Arendt, evil is thoughtlessness because to critically think you have to see situations from every angle. Mindless actions and shallow thoughts are not considered thinking when it comes to Arendt. But my problem is, and maybe someone can help me out here, her teacher Dr. Heidegger was a member of the nazi party and wrote several letters to nazi police that got many people in the philosophy profession in alot of trouble. He even ratted out his own teacher! How can one of the greatests minds of all times do such horrible things and support such an evil cause and still be thoughtless? His works during the time of WWII were still of the same genius quality as when he was writing before and after the war. Can he still be considered a great thinker if during his time of evil he was being thoughtless? It's very confusing. it is said consciousness is only present when other options are available when making a critical decision. Is it then a matter of thoughtlessness or lack of consciousness? keep in mind Arendt does not believe in duality. She believes that some decisions are purely somatic in nature and many of our actions don't require thought. Just something to think about. Maybe you can give me some ideas.
ReplyDeleteAnimals can be very rational. The dolphin in the video I think was very rational. It did what it needed to do to get help. Some animals when they are hurt or are in distress usually are not rational and become aggressive in their state.
ReplyDeleteToday, my fiance & I took our 16 year old dalmation, Sam, to be euthanized. About a month ago she was diagnosed with kidney cancer and in that short time her condition worsened. We knew it was going to be difficult, and it is, but it was the right thing to do to avoid any unbearable pain she would soon experience. Just over a year ago we lost her sister, Maggie, to breast cancer. Needless to say it has been a rough year. This time was much more humane though because the vetinarian sedated her and gave us time to say our goodbyes. I already miss her. I miss them both. So to my beatiful Sammy, (AKA: old lady & pain in my ...) I love you
ReplyDeleteI believe animals can be rational and I agree with Bobby that animals can become aggressive when they are hurt or in distress. Sam was always moody, but in her last couple months became very snippy.
ReplyDelete